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mark-s
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Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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 Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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tiers is the way to go i think.
just separating the people into tiers needs sorting though.
use three different colours for names i.e red white blue these should be easy enough to pick out in the finished list, then award the points accordingly, say ten for the winner in red, 8 for second and so on, then look for the first finisher in the whites and same again ten for the winner etc etc.
but the people sorting is going to be the hardest personally i would like to see a good elite put with a poor mid field and then a half decent noob.
then with the poorer people that are in the elites they get saddled with a really good mid field and noob, hopefully this would even the points out when it comes to tallying up all the teams points for the championship. |
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Dantski
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bea wrote: | | if I'm still finishing behind after doing a perfect run, then that's why I think the handicap for elites should be brought down to 6 on slower tracks |
But quite obviously you didn't have a close to perfect run, SWAT had the same handicap and won the race!
Also both races were won by 'elite' drivers which also suggests the handicap wasn't sufficient for them.
Look at the elite groups placings for both races.
1st race: 1st, 3rd, 7th, 11th and 24th (if Reh was still driving)
2nd race: 1st, 2nd, 7th and 13th (note bboy left and probably woulda been top 5)
Also factor in that I shot myself in the foot both races, first one by doing an extra loop and second by crashing twice on the final lap.
From my perspective, the handicap was close to perfect for my own racing speed. I am never really going to keep up with the elite group (except Reh) so I feel I need a slight advantage over them 
Looking at the results of the slowest group, I'd say they need another loops advantage.
So I'm thinking (highly dependent on circuit + loop)
Slowskis - start normally
Midskis - 4 loops
Elitist Pigs - 8 loops.
Of course using this would result in myself finishing around 20th each race, but I think it would've provided a closer finish to yesterdays races.
| madmin wrote: | | Just to throw a spanner in the works handicaps could be variable and set by the driver themselves above a specified minimum. A higher reward could be gained by picking a higher handicap in single laps so that the aim is to go as high as you dare... this saves demeaning people and forcing them into slots which they might not fit. If someone is consistantly winning by large margins then their minimum handicap is raised and thus the field is effectively relevelled and rewarded for their efforts. For a better GP yesterday the groups would have handicap laps from 0 to 10 with the middle group expected to spread from 3 to 7 laps etc.. does that just muddy the waters??? |
Interesting idea and obvious one to pursue if you want to go all-out in terms of fairness. I imagine a few people here are familiar with the ballast (weight) penalties in touring cars and how the winner of the previous race is handicapped in the next one.
Keeping 3 groups in one race and expecting perfection is unfair on the admins. There's people in the same group that think "hey this guy is way faster than me, this is a bit silly!", but in general I think last night's experimentation was a successful one.
I haven't really done the past 2 seasons so I can't comment on races being a bit processional, but I do envisage the next season being a simple matter of bea\swat\bboy winning all the races. This isn't their fault, this is only the case because of trackmania forever introducing respawning so that you can get away with previously fatal mistakes. However Mad did note that Forever is far more finicky in terms of flipping, bugs etc, so respawns allow trackmakers to keep tracks a little bit wacky.
I don't know what point I was trying to make but I hope someone found something useful in there! 
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Munkhi
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
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Location: Herts, England
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mad wrote: | Munkhi, Sorry you weren't around last season and your comments come from your lack of experience in the field. With performances like last night over half the field would have failed to finish if we'd all started at the same time... ouch and some people have been trying to raise their game for 3 years... and believe me, it's not easy. Ability and skill are affected dramatically by equipment, talent and age.
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Yes, you're probably right. I wasn't around for last season (just missed the sign up date  ), but again I raise the point that finishing would have little to do with GP points and fun if you re-read my suggestion at the bottom of last post. All you'd have to do is stay ahead of your Tier's competition - finish or no - to pick up the points. Everyone has something to play for.
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Dantski
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | tiers is the way to go i think.
just separating the people into tiers needs sorting though.
use three different colours for names i.e red white blue these should be easy enough to pick out in the finished list, then award the points accordingly, say ten for the winner in red, 8 for second and so on, then look for the first finisher in the whites and same again ten for the winner etc etc.
but the people sorting is going to be the hardest personally i would like to see a good elite put with a poor mid field and then a half decent noob.
then with the poorer people that are in the elites they get saddled with a really good mid field and noob, hopefully this would even the points out when it comes to tallying up all the teams points for the championship. |
Yeah for a closer team competition I agree with this, however this would mean people wouldn't have the same freedon to form their own teams (like GIT, GNR and Spankytech) and people like to team with their friends far more than their enem......other colleagues.
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McInSanE
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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lol dantski but good point ;D
| mark-s wrote: | tiers is the way to go i think.
just separating the people into tiers needs sorting though.
use three different colours for names i.e red white blue these should be easy enough to pick out in the finished list, then award the points accordingly, say ten for the winner in red, 8 for second and so on, then look for the first finisher in the whites and same again ten for the winner etc etc.
but the people sorting is going to be the hardest personally i would like to see a good elite put with a poor mid field and then a half decent noob.
then with the poorer people that are in the elites they get saddled with a really good mid field and noob, hopefully this would even the points out when it comes to tallying up all the teams points for the championship. |
If you let everybody in each tier race at the same time, you could also award people beating people from other (higher) tiers...
the tier system is not meant to be perfect and if the handicap thing works fine- then i'm all for it, but a tier system will balance out after one or two season.. ...another disadvantage i have to admit though is that the "noobs" will always be stuck in tier3 which might also be a little disappointing... |
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HotSWAT
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 670
Location: you know what..? I really don't know..
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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i did have a longer post but the stupid antispam mod said i couldnt send it. now i cba posting properly xP
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Bea
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Dantski wrote: |
But quite obviously you didn't have a close to perfect run, SWAT had the same handicap and won the race!
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I'm not as good as Swat or BBoy on tracks like Frozen but I was still getting round the track fairly quickly, not hitting any walls until lap 25 and only losing an avg 0.5s per lap to Swat. In my view, I did a perfect run based on my own abilities - which is why I think 6 laps would be better rather than 7, as it gives a bit more breathing room for the elites on slower tracks. All elites shouldn't be forced to drive near the limits the game physics allow in order to catch the rest up. 
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msquires
Spam King
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm against tiering and here's why:
1) During the whole of the first race I felt like I wasn't racing for an actual position, but rather I was racing just to pass the slower group before I ran out of laps...this shouldn't be my reason for racing (No offense to Sosteve but...) Sosteve finished ahead of me, had we have started at the same time, I may have beaten him but with the handiloops, I finished behind him.
2) In the second race I was 2nd behind Bea until Swat caught me on the last lap. The idea was to get some good grandstand finishes...I would much rather have a good race against other people and not be pissed off at the end because I thought I was going to get second an then get pipped to the post (grandstand finishes are much better when you have been racing the person for the whole 25 laps and not because you have been racing on your own and then get a faster driver fly past right at the end!)
3) As soon as the last season finished, everyone was up for the next season to start...Therefore I don't believe there is an issue of people being bored with the original and simple format.
4) It just doesnt give better racing! I didnt enjoy the race anymore because I knew the elites were going to start with a penalty...I'd rather justify my finishing position because I earned it and not because the people behind were penalised. (Surely other people felt this?!)
Edit: I was referring to tiering in the races. I'm not fussed if the points are tiered but the races should, in my opinion, just be about the racing and not politics of who is better than who and penalisation. |
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mark-s
PRO Admin
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Posts: 527
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| McInSanE wrote: | If you let everybody in each tier race at the same time, you could also award people beating people from other (higher) tiers...
the tier system is not meant to be perfect and if the handicap thing works fine- then i'm all for it, but a tier system will balance out after one or two season.. ...another disadvantage i have to admit though is that the "noobs" will always be stuck in tier3 which might also be a little disappointing... |
i wouldnt reward anybody for beating someone higher, they just had a better race and didnt crash as many times as the elite they have just beaten.
but they are in the middle section because they are not as good as the elites, the championship winner would only come from the top tier not the middle or noob tier, they have scored there points for beating people of there calibre not anybody better, they only top there tier, if you think this is not fair volunteer to be put with the elites and see how you get on.
i have been playing a while now and there is no way i am going to challenge swat, bea or bboy etc etc
but if i was in tier 2 middle runners then i would be battling against the likes of midden, spanky etc etc something that not impossible.
although the way i am playing at the moment i think sosteve will be beating me.
and as for team mates i know its nice to all get together and have a bit of fun, but how disheartening is it gonna be when one season you look and its gonna be we will be team quick and it consists of swat bea and bboy.
rest of you are all thinking well theres second to play for, i am just trying to even the field a bit more |
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Munkhi
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 127
Location: Herts, England
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think there will ever be a season where Swat, BBoy and Bea are on the same team. I doubt the admins would allow it. There are no 'runaway' teams this season. There are several very good ones, and the team title is up for grabs (if there's no handicap).
If there have been all tier 1 teams in the past, an old man with a stick should wave it disapprovingly in the admins direction 
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Dantski
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In my view, I did a perfect run based on my own abilities - which is why I think 6 laps would be better rather than 7, as it gives a bit more breathing room for the elites on slower tracks. All elites shouldn't be forced to drive near the limits the game physics allow in order to catch the rest up. |
Mainly responding to the last sentence.
I think the whole point of this exercise was to try and give people in all 3 tiers a reasonable chance of winning, however both races were won by an 'elite' and the other elites all finished in the top half.
You saw Andsome crash a bunch and beat you....so what? Andsome might have driven extremely well by his own standards + track might have suited him better than it did you.
I can't really understand the logic behind reducing the handicap for elite even further. I mean in the 2 races, SWAT wasn't beaten by anyone outside of the elite group and you were only beaten by Andsome, to me that suggests the elite handicap needs to be increased rather than the opposite.
You also say that elites shouldn't be forced to drive at the games limit, why not? SWAT isn't one of the top 50 drivers on TMNF so you aren't on the game limit if you're half a second slower!
Sorry if this comes across as aggressive but you finished 3rd and 1st and you feel you need a smaller handicap? Seems ludicrous...
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mad
Site Admin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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he he now its livening up 
sorry just my sick sense of humour, I expected a stronger response to the racing sooner to get a feel for things out there.... the world of non admin
I think we're maybe making this a bit personal as well which is not the idea. but hey, some interesting points of view. |
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Bea
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dantski, you're getting baited by my exaggeration/sarcasm .
Just ignore the results of last night, I had a feeling at least one person would misinterpret me using them as an example .
| Bea wrote: |
Also, the type of track affects how bad the handicap affects someone as well. Avg lap times would differ much less between the fastest and slowest on a slow track like tonight's Frozen (track 1) - where mistakes don't cost you a lot of time, compared to the crazy speed track The System (track 2) - where a mistake can cost you a huge amount of time.
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The above quote is my main argument about the handicap. I'm just pointing out that on slower tracks the handicap is a lot harder on people generally compared to faster tracks. So if its 1 slower / 1 faster track setup each week then I thought it might be worth having a modified handicap setup for a slower track, that's all.
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YussuF
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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whoa, a lot of reading...first of all I'd like to say I could kick myself in the ass for not being around that night 
Last season was kinda predictable, so somehow tiers or handicaps shall and will make it funnier for all I think.
Though I agree on Matt's 4 points, especially in following: in a race everybody should start at the same time - only that way great racing can come up, battling those who are at your "skill-level" is the most fun and I don't think anyone of the
early-starting-people felt like he was racing Bboy or Bea.....
So, tiers and start at the same time of all would be what I promote, but hey - in the end I'll drive that season, whatever is decided |
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McInSanE
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dantski wrote: |
I can't really understand the logic behind reducing the handicap for elite even further. I mean in the 2 races, SWAT wasn't beaten by anyone outside of the elite group and you were only beaten by Andsome, to me that suggests the elite handicap needs to be increased rather than the opposite. |
I get your point Dantski but you want to make it impossible for the elite group to win a GP which is not good either i think.. ..it's ok if you make it harder, but making it impossible would also ruin the "fun" for the elite-racers?? |
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HotSWAT
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 670
Location: you know what..? I really don't know..
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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i reckon the team championship should be left as normal. Mainly because I think its better if you have at least one league to show people where they really are relative to others. The best in Group 2 would turn into the new elites, and the worst in group 1 would end up average.
maybe the solo series could be handicapped, it's a bit more geared towards fun-lovers than the competitive.
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AndSome
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
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Location: Hampshire (UK)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I had a great time.
trying to catch Little Deanio who was miles ahead and worried sick that Swat, Bea or BBoy were about to appear on the sectors timings.
While the debate about who is in what group and what the ultimate number of handi-loops is I'd just like to say it was an excellent idea, well executed and with a lot of mileage to provide some excellent racing. (albiet with a little fine tuning)
I felt the results for me represented my driving, clean and consistent on the first track...............Random errors on the second
thanks MAD....thats another pint I owe you for providing an entertaining evening. |
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Spanky_McCoy
Dirty Deeds Done Cheap(ish)
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
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Location: Fortress Spanky
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Munkhi wrote: | Have to disagree with you there Spanky. It's not just the elites that are against the change, a couple of us tier 2s are too.
Sure, Mad Laps is about fun. That's the whole point of the PRO server imo, but a season should be about competition and doing your best. The whole point is to reward the best drivers and the best teams for the best driving. It might sound harsh, but if players aren't good enough then they need to step their game up during a season. I'm not going to with sod all, but this system is going to stop me and many Tier 2s from even contributing points to our team. With this system, what's the point in even keeping score?
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That's funny a lot of the middle group were on vent last night and not one complained about the format. In fact it's the first time in a very very long time I've found most of us were excited about a race. Problem with the mad laps gp series is that it needs a shake up and the people who don't want to shake it up either haven't raced in very many GP's or are used to being at the top.
To be honest tiered racing is about exciting as piles, sure it's there but it doesn't mean a lot other a pain in the arse. I know exactly who is the top midfield racer without fannying around with points, because out of twenty racers he or she is the one in 8th place on the overall ranking, call him top of the midfield racers all you want but they're still 8th place.
I'm not having a pop at you Munkhi btw I'm just disappointed with a lot of dissenting voices and to be honest if they spat the dummy and pissed off it would make for a more exciting season.
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Munkhi
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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I was referring to the forum, I wasn't on Vent and I've already agreed that it was a great format for a fun race. Were many people giving it serious thought regarding use in a season at the time on Vent though?
Fair enough, but I don't understand the purpose of the season. It seems kinda redundant once the value of the results are removed.
Not sure why tiered racing would be dull, we'd all be genuinely competing and there'd be value in the results. Does pretending we actually beat BBoy/[insert uber player here] because he started miles behind have any value? Nobody's going to go "you're amazing!". We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I guess.
Don't be too hard on the dissenting voices either, everyone looks at things from their own perspective (especially at different skill levels) and the only way to get the system tweaked right for everyone is to hear and understand their perspectives too.
I'm not trying to be an a******e here either, just asking legit questions because I am really confused about the merits of this in a competition.
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mad
Site Admin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Munkhi wrote: |
Not sure why tiered racing would be dull, we'd all be genuinely competing and there'd be value in the results. Does pretending we actually beat BBoy/[insert uber player here] because he started miles behind have any value? Nobody's going to go "you're amazing!". We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I guess.
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Think I explained this one...
Half the field on Thursday wouldn't have finished... that means that a whole tier of racers might never complete a race in a season. Tiers can't work with everyone on the track. We don't have the admin powers to do different races for different skills and a tiered system can't accommodate someone's improvements during a season. |
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